The lonliness of the long distance Auto Mag
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Topic: The lonliness of the long distance Auto Mag
Posted By: Stainless Magnum
Subject: The lonliness of the long distance Auto Mag
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2008 at 2:53am
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How many here have fired their Auto Mags at long-for-pistol distances? And what results have you had? The question is posed upon my reminiscing of a shooting day last year. In question is a 10 1/2", .44 AM pistol. I was doing some routine chronographing and cyclability testing, usually a sub 20 round affair, when I noticed the steel practice container in the distance as I was putting the gun away. This container was a remnant of some other shooters, but it measures some 16" in diameter and 24" in height; This steel makeshift gong delivers a kind, reaffirming chime everytime it's hit. It is audible past 500 yards. We've used it in the past to test surplus military rifle sights, and to zero-in scopes. From our postion we have verified it to be 320 yards. Returning to the Auto Mag.....as I was putting it away, and espied the rusty whiner, I thought why not try my last five rounds on the old bucket? Well, being a somewhat devoted Kieth man, using the front sight hold-over method I tried a few shots. The load is a LaserCast .430" 240gr. Semi-Wadcutter over 19.8 grains of H-110. This load does about 1390-1440 f/ps from this barrel. The first round struck the twilight of the metal and the ground. The subsequent two rounds row-called in with their positive ringing tone. I stopped, put away the last two rounds, and scratched my head. I took no credit with the bystanders, and simply decided the gun was inherently hexed in a good way. I have made a practice to shoot pistols at long distances since I started shooting, but always had to tailor loads for this kind of accuracy. I was kindly vexed by the instant precision. Do I have a lucky barrel, did the load just hit the gambler's odds and make a great combo.......or......are Auto Mags just superbly accurate. Your thoughts. I ask modestly, for in all respects I do not wish to factor in to the equation. I do understand Mr. Jurras made common practice of this, and would be hard pressed to deny I didn't feel Jurras'esque as I accomplished this. None the less...........How 'bout them Auto Mags? ------------- "Feo, Fuerte, y Formal" John Wayne, on how he would like to be thought of. Translation: Ugly, strong, and dignified. |
Replies:
Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2008 at 3:10pm
My personal findings are that Most AM's are inherently more accurate at ranges over 100 yds than most revolvers over the same distance. Nowdays with more custom made sixguns being fitted up to tighter specs this is probably not as true. But during the Seventies and eighty's I found this to be so...In ranges up to 500 yards I probably shot an equal number of rounds thru both revolver and Auto's, at ranges out to 1000 yards probably fired more with revolvers..There is no particular magic in shooting at these ranges with the one hand gun. It helps immensley to shoot where one can see the bullet strike tho. I dare say most shooters do not live or shoot in an area where he or she can readily practice at these ranges...Shooting at inatimate targets can be quite rewarding and enlightning. However I shot very few if any cast bullets in the AM. The loads I used primarily in the AM were in the 1700- 2000 fps range which offered a much flatter trajectory out to the 500 yard mark than most of the revolver loads in the 12-1300 fps range, thusly making hits on targets considerably easier...
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Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2008 at 3:21pm
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Back in the being of IHMSA, the Automag was the gun of choice. The range for those steel critters was 50,100,150,200 meters.
I spoke with a gunsmith at SSK and he told me he had a tuned 357 AMP that could do 2" at 200 yards from a rest.
Gerry
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Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2008 at 5:35pm
| Gerry, if you remember a little history, The Club de Auto Mag Internationale was the sponsor of the first of what was to become the IHMSA. We formed the IHMSA at what was billed as the second Handgun Silhouette match at Ft. Bliss, TX...About 165 miles from me. The T/C and various XP Rems were probably the guns of choice at the time. Remington was about ready to drop the XP from the line, but IHMSA granted it new life. Both as a comp gun as well as new chamberings as a hunting handgun. Personally I've never considered it a handgun, but some new younger chaps, because it falls under certain ATF standards as to what is considered a handgub still call it such...I have built many guns off the XP action, but was always tongue in cheek about calling it a handgun...FWIW dept |
Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2008 at 11:52pm
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LEJ
I remember the history. Elgin Gates's book does a nice job of the early years and has a number of sweet pictures of custom Auto Mags along with reloading info. It was through the MI IMHSA that I met J. Moran. Small world!
In my class, I got 4 of 5 pigs with my 44 AMP until I jerked the last shot. switched to the XP in 7 BR: had kid and got lost in time. I took the XP out last summer. Still can outshoot some rifles on the range. I may play with it this year!
Gerry
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Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2008 at 11:47pm
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Anyone ever shot their Automag II at 100 yards. It might just suprise you!!! Mine did, shot very well.
JW
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Posted By: AUTOMAG
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2008 at 12:11am
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Jason, not an AM ll but my Baby Auto Mag is surprisingly accurate at 100 yards!!!
------------- "This is the 44 Magnum Auto Mag and holds a 300 grain cartridge and if properly used it can remove the fingerprints"!!! |
Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2008 at 1:55am
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John,
I haven't tried mine at 100 yards. I've got a 10.5" AMT Lightning too, I bet it'll give a run for the money.
JW
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Posted By: AUTOMAG
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2008 at 2:03am
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Jason, I need to get me an AMT Lightning one day!!! I look at them all the time and the prices are really not that bad!
------------- "This is the 44 Magnum Auto Mag and holds a 300 grain cartridge and if properly used it can remove the fingerprints"!!! |
Posted By: Ginsaw
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2008 at 3:33am
| Speaking of the Club de Auto Mag, what ever happened with it? How many at most members were there and what did one have to do to join? |
Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2008 at 5:21pm
| Don't remember total count. But was not enough to continue with Newsletter, that was the reason for all the 4 Sale items, to help pay for the quality of the offset printing of the newsletter. About the same 50 people bought or participated in all activities...Would or might be easier today with the internet. Rick is trying that with this site. Personally I haven't had time the past year to contribute much in the way of pix and or tune-up info as I would have liked. But my health seems to be improving so mabe I can contribute more in the future. Rick has a lot of info from my old site that pertains to the Auto Mag, maybe he can post some of it... |
Posted By: Ginsaw
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2008 at 6:31pm
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I'm extremely pleased to hear you're doing better healthwise. In the 70s I think I was aware of the club. I don't recall how. Maybe it was referred to in advertisements for the gun? I probably would have gotten involved if I owned the gun sooner. It wasn't until about '80 that I bought my first AutoMag.
Actually, I like to think of us here as a re-incarnation of sorts of the Club de Auto Mag Internationale. We have a number of states covered (about 10?) and are certainly international with guys in the U.K., Belgium and I believe we had a post once from New Zealand if I recall correctly.
I wonder if any of those 50 are among today's posters or viewers here? Do we have any original club members?
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Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2008 at 8:19pm
| I'm thinking matbe Jason down in FL. Many have passed on.... |
Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 1:54am
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Lee,
I was alive when you did the newsletters. But I was just a 4 year old kid watching dad load and gunsmith Mausers. My father got to shoot my first Automag, and I can say he was tickled, he remebered reading all the original articles and was impressed that my well worn TDE was so accurate. He still shoots it better than me. I guess with age, comes discipline!!!!!
So, not me, but wish I was!!!!
I'm taking mine to a shoot this weekend, and I'll let a few people experience it that never have before.
Jason
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Posted By: Stainless Magnum
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 12:44pm
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I've never tried the Automag II past 25 yards. I have tested the others on paper at 200 yards. The Automag III in .30 Carbine and 9mm Win. Mag were acceptable, though not as distinguished as some revolvers. The AM IV in .45 Win. Mag was a bit better, but I withhold judgment due to the use of old factory ammo in that excursion. I believe the best in show was the 10mm Magnum; I was very impressed with it's performance and have always wanted an opportunity to go past 200 yards with it. I have never tried the .50 AE past 100 yards; At which it was decent. All this was done 8+ years ago, so I can't remember groupings.....just impressions. ------------- "Feo, Fuerte, y Formal" John Wayne, on how he would like to be thought of. Translation: Ugly, strong, and dignified. |
Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 3:01pm
| Altho the various numbered AM's count as AM's...When I have reference to the AM. IT is just the original. 44, 41, 357, and its custom variations. NOT the other Pistols built by Harry and those that came later using the AM name to produce 1911 or Mauser style blow back pistols...They are not in the same category... |
Posted By: Stainless Magnum
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 3:53pm
Yes indeed, I have always understood that to be your preference . I was strictly discussing the original Auto Mag myself, but I saw a few posts regarding the accuracy of the "offshoots". I was following up on those replies. The "offshoots" pale in comparison  , but I don't mind opening up the thread to include them. From my part, I spell the original as "Auto Mag" and the rest as Automag; or just refer to them as series I through V. For me there is something reverential in just spelling Auto Mag this way.------------- "Feo, Fuerte, y Formal" John Wayne, on how he would like to be thought of. Translation: Ugly, strong, and dignified. |
Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 5:56pm
| Not to be difficult or find fault with Ricks site. I would as soon have two parts, The Original Auto Mag, as designated those be 357,41,and 44....To compare the one's thru fives has no rationality. They should be compared with other stainless guns with similar likenesses...FWIW |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 6:17pm
That sounds like a good idea, it would make finding the info needed or wanted more easy.
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curmudgeon wrote:Posted By: Stainless Magnum
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2008 at 6:41pm
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I agree with your apples to oranges intimation, and to what they sould rationally be compared to. As for a bi-cameral forum, it seems good, but it may be difficult to moderate in practice. Seems there is a tendency for many to lump all the guns in any general discussion. Not to say that's a bad thing. I think it's a general attraction to all of Mr. Sanford's guns. The folks I know started as Auto Mag lovers and then just became complete admirers of "Harry's guns". Specificity would streamline many things though, and if manageable I wouldn't mind it. The "Venerable Auto Mag" forum and the "Harry has more handguns" forum, or as it may. ------------- "Feo, Fuerte, y Formal" John Wayne, on how he would like to be thought of. Translation: Ugly, strong, and dignified. |
Posted By: Ginsaw
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2008 at 9:01pm
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Curmudgeon (or anyone), what is in your experience about the maximum effective range for handgun generally? I'll let you define that, but I guess I'm talking about where you'd stand a reasonable chance for instance of a clean one shot on a deer sized target, which I imagine would translate into what? Maybe a 12 or 15 inch circle? BTW, we have a 600 yd range at the local club, and I was thinking of giving it a try with a revolver. Any tips? |
Posted By: Ginsaw
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2008 at 4:50pm
| Add-on to last post. Having thought more about it, 12 to 15 inches wouldn't do. A target about 8" to 10" diameter would leave a margin of error of 4 to 5 either side which should be fine for a small deer size target. I'm just not sure how far out to expect to be able to hit that with a 41 or 44. It appears some range experimentation is in order. I never owned a scoped handgun before, but just bought one in 44 and will give it a try. |
Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 12:44am
| Ginsaw, you don't need a scope on a handgun just reasonably good eyesight. With 20/20 or 20/25 you should be able to train yourself to be consistent on Deer size game to 200-225 yds. I did and have, but it took several years and a few hundred thousand rounds of ammo and dedication. But your mileage may vary. There are better shooters than me out there. There was a time when I hit the 200 yd Rams with regularity, in the chest area, with open sights...FWIW, have made many shots on walking coyotes at over 200 yds with a 6.5" bbl'd 357 AM...even a couple running. We won't mentioned how many I've missed, but more than I hit....The old philosophy that you can't hit the shot if you don't take it. I limit this to Varmints. |
Posted By: Ginsaw
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 5:16pm
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Coyotes as targets is not a bad idea, especially when you know what they do to your small game - but that's another story. I've never tried one with a handgun. It took me a while to figure out that it wouldn't really mess up a deer hunt to be shooting at them. Sometimes they bring out the old sixth sense. You can literally feel the hair tingling on the back of your neck. Then turn quick, look behind and discover a couple long legged evil looking things quietly sneaking up on you. Always when you're alone and at dusk. They disappear and melt back into the woods in the blink of an eye when they know you've seen them. When that happens a shotgun gets emptied into the woods where I think they are.
Anyway, since we're talking handgunning generally, do you have any tips to share on improving one's skill on moving targets?
I can honestly say I haven't lost a deer so far, but if I'm not mistaken sometimes on ones that were moving the point of impact was a few inches farther back than where I thought I was aiming. When they're standing still this doesn't seem the case. I've tried to analyze it and the closest to an answer I can come up with is that it may be like the old thing with a person learning shotgunning who stops their swing. I overcame that decades ago with shotguns. That's only a theory however. There might be other things going on. Just thought you might have some suggestions.
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Posted By: curmudgeon
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 5:35pm
| The only suggestion I can make is lots of practice... |