one less amt v ser 1916
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Category: Auto Mag Pistol
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URL: http://www.amtguns.info/forum_posts.asp?TID=2036
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Topic: one less amt v ser 1916
Posted By: DANKO
Subject: one less amt v ser 1916
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 7:10pm
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i fired 1 round of mag safe defender 180 grain 
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Replies:
Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 10:58pm
 ------------- An armed society is a polite society. |
Posted By: GBswingpine
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 11:24pm
| WOW!!! I hope nobody got seriously injured. That's got the (I lost my right eye) kind of look to the photo. |
Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 11:27pm
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SPOOKY! Never seen that kind of damage before. Assuming bbl. was not obstructed, I'm guessing a weak spot. The Magsafe rounds are kinda like buckshot, so may have started separating too soon? Would love to hear the thoughts of a machinist or other technical expert. ------------- 'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 1:12am
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I'm guessing it was an obstructed Bbl or round was ignited before being fully chambered & Slide/Bbl fully locked. Nasty/Ouch,,, ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 12:05pm
Wow....see the M.B.L. can in picture.could this be the problem?  Glad noone got hurt!
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Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 3:47pm
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Wow that looks bad. Hope you're OK!! If that was the first and only shot you made the AMT V, I bet that scared the hell out of you. I would contact the ammo dealer and hear what he has to say about this! 180 grains for a .50 AE is crazy light bullet, so I suspect the powder was a fast burning type. Something can go bad quick with this type of powder. Let us know how this goes on. Luc V.
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Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 3:43pm
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I tried to find more info about the ammo, Is this the ammo you used in the pistol? http://www.sportingsupply.com/magsafe-defender-grain-pack-p-48859.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.sportingsupply.com/magsafe-defender-grain-pack-p-48859.html The warning on the label says it all, this ROUND, not bullet... True, but sad...  |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 7:53pm
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Normally these kinds of ammo don't generate high pressure, so its very suspicious as to why this gun failed. Either there was some gross flaw in the barrel, or it fired before the Bbl/Slide were fully locked into battery, or there was an obstruction in the barrel. ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 8:19pm
| no one got hurt luckily sorry about the delay getting back to you |
Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 8:36pm
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Here is the scenario nice day, toward evening i got the gun out checked it over it was pristine not even power residue at the muzzle ports so i live 1 min away from the mountain loaded 3 cartridges in this order 1 hornady jhp 300 grain, 1 mag safe 180 grain to try (first time) and then another hornady like the first. ok put clip in pull the slide back to arm the gun, eyed the target pulled the trigger and the the round went off and hit the target. Took a second, eyed over the gun everything looked good so i was ready to rock and roll, so i thought, squezed the 2nd round off it went off, didn't feel or hear anything different about the shot, but i couldn't pull the trigger anymore, and then i noticed to my horror that the gun wasnt intact anymore ! i think it was the ammo. the slide is shut and no one is moving it!! i will up load pics of the first brass and the second possibly tomorrow . i consider myself very lucky but also i put this out there to warn people to use caution when using mag safe ammo in these guns until we get this figured out. i have emailed mag safe and did not get a response as of yet !!!! has anyone used mag safe 50 's in an automag v also i will be looking for another automag v i loved that gun !!!
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Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 8:46pm
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yeh luck v the round did what they advertise it destroyed my gun ! I can laugh now i still have my eyes and my fingers !!! but beware using these in your auto v
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Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 8:50pm
| to all, i think this is one for the mith busters any one have there number!! |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 9:04pm
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Thanks Steve for your reply and PM. Thank God you didn't got hurt! When I saw the label on the ammo, I thought is was to funny after I read your story here, didn't want to make fun of You though...  I really have my doubts about the magsafe ammo, such a light bullet for a 50AE is unusual and my guess is they use fast burning powder to push it... BTW, I stopped using IMI (Samson) factory ammunition in the AMT V, because those where also hot loaded. I don't think the mith busters can do much with your gun anymore sorry... |
Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 10:02pm
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Unfortunately Mythbusters had their final episode ever last night, so thats a no-go from the get-go! Its obviously not a myth, anyway, as we've all seen that it happened! I'm sure somebody here would have the skill to investigate, but I fear AM-V bbls. are in short supply! ------------- 'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 12:10am
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Luc, All I ever used in my "V" was/is Samson ammo. Are you sure they are loaded "HOT"? I haven't shot it in awhile and got it "new" so I know it was never hand loaded/abused, unless Samson Ammo is doing the abuse!? I don't understand the "light bullets/fast powder comment, can somebody explain this in better detail so I understand. I alway heard light bullets scream but never thought about all the "other" things that are going on. Would Mag safe tell you the burn rate of the powder? Did the bullet hit what you aimed at or is MIA? Any bulge in the barrel or just ripped apart? Thanks for any help/replies
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Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 1:26am
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I can't help but wonder if the first round didn't hang its jacket in the Bbl and eject the core down range and that what hit the target. Assuming the Bbl is not currently blocked, can you see heavy copper transfer at the muzzle end? That would be a good indication that you had a stuck jacket. Luc's concept about fast powder has merit, but I think the scenario would play as a fast powder with an overload/double charge in that particular round in question. Otherwise you would be hearing about guns blowing all over the place. You could take the remaining rounds apart and see how consistent the ammo was loaded. Or better yet, have a professional loader disassemble the rounds and document the findings for you. You may find nothing as it may have been a problem with a single loaded round. And again, it could be a problem with a jacket separation, and good luck proving that one. While I am not a big fan of the Automag series guns, I have never heard of any quality problems that would lead me to believe they were unsafe, I guess its always possible your was the odd defective gun,,, Does anyone know how much testing of these guns occurred??? In the end, this is why so few high performance guns actually exist, there is such a huge risk of failures and lawsuits. GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 6:01pm
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XP001, Just my opinion on the .50 Samson ammo, (the black/gold boxes): I'm not saying they are "overloaded" just saying I found them "to hot" for the AMT V. I'll try to explain: If I shot those in my V, the recoil was sort of snappy, quick, fast and agressive. Not the same as the push, shove, kick or hit by a mule sort of recoil I had from shooting the desert Eagle.50 It's hard to find the right words to discribe the feel of recoil, but I hope you understand what I'm saying... When I shot my (also brandnew) V with the samson ammo, I got many malfunctions in extraction, and feeding. Many times the extractor just took a bite out of the case rim. At the end even the ejector broke off at maximum 150 rounds fired. That was the point I quit using that ammo in the V. I started to reload for this pistol, and with a milder load the extraction-feeding problems where all gone. It works as it should by using a "somewhat softer" load. That's just MY story about the Samson ammo, and why I think they are to hot for the V, that's all. Back to the Original poster's problem, the first thing I noticed was that the damage is done in the foreward direction. I mean the explosion start at the casehead, blowing the parts to the front. Away from the shooter. In a stuck bullet-in-bore, the barrel splits more as front to back banana. Towards the shooter. This is why I guessed that a fast burning powder was used. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that things "can" go wrong much faster as with slowburning powder. Sort of more room for error thing. A simple push back of the bullet (deeper into the case) when the cartridge feeds into the chamber will raise the pressure very fast! When the ammo was loaded close to max. pressure, you will soon be over the top! You will never know if this happens but it could be. I'm neighter a fan of the pre fragmented bullets, thy are just loose parts (shot) inside a copperjacket. You never know if the shot stays firm enough inside the bullet's jacket, especially in the hard kicking guns. The shot may become loose when the cartridge is still in the magazine(during recoil) and so you just end up loading a half filled jacket into the chamber. Or the crimp on the case can hold the bullet's jacket, and the shot flies out when the slide close. Leaving the cartridge ready to shoot, but where is the 'shot'?? I know this is just all speculation, and we probably never know what happend. I just feel very sorry for Steve, loosing your new pistol just like that. |
Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 1:14am
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I understand the "shove" V "snappy recoil", it's been awhile since I shot mine so not sure if I have any "new" issues with feed/eject. I would remember if I had any issues with mine and know it shot perfect and I love the "feel" of it V the Desert Eagle "brick grip". I understand the theory of the jacket barrel blockage you stated, it really does look like it just blow up just in front of the case mouth area, going forward like. I also know I stick with factory ammo as I don't load plus I only shoot "normal" loads so not to chance this issue. Just safer for me.
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Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 4:30am
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Luc, When you talk about the banana split Bbl, are you thinking rifle? When I have seen pistols suffer hollow point jacket separation and the jacket gets stuck in the Bbl it always seems to be stuck closer to the chamber and its the back of the gun that blows up as in this photo. The tip-off is usually the heavy copper fowling in the Bbl. As the next round strikes the jacket lodged in the Bbl it pushes the stuck jacket down and out the Bbl and leaves a crazy heavy copper coating behind. You can see where the copper starts and you will know where the jacket was stuck. Many years ago I saw someones AM 1 that had shed a jacket and the shooter then sent another round down the Bbl, needless to say it was trashed. The bolt came back with such force it broke the hammer off the hammer then hit the shooter in the face! The inside of the Bbl had a coating of copper from about 1 inch in front of the chamber all the way to the muzzle. It looked like heavy copper plating. The hollow point ammo he was using was unknown quality that came with the gun, and used the old style low height jacket with a lot of exposed in the nose. I recall seeing printed notifications inside Hornady bullet boxes warning that particular bullets were only safe for use up to a certain velocity. I can only assume jacket separation is the concern. So DANKO, can you see a lot of copper inside the Bbl??? If not can you tell if the Slide is all the way forward, or is it even slightly back from the 100% forward position? Do you have the brass case from the round that caused the damage? I also seem to recall seeing a revolver cyl blown out once. I think it was someone who loaded a case full of a very fast powder like Bulseye in a high volume round (45 LC) and the cyl just blew apart. Can you provide more pictures??? gh ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 5:25pm
AUTO MAG, NO COPPER IN BARREL I SAW FIRST ROUND STRIKE TARGET, SLIDE LOCKED ALL THE WAY FORWARD AND NOT MOVING LOL HERE IS THE PICTURE OF FIRST ROUND HORNADY AND SECOND ROUND MAGSAFE 
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Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2016 at 2:04am
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Interesting,,, Can you provide a closer shot of both pieces of brass, it might be helpful to see a but more detail. GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2016 at 2:57am
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When I look at the pictures on the web site from my tiny Sony Laptop screen, it's hard to see any details, but I was able to download the pictures of the brass and the gun and then open them with another program and zoom in on them for a closer look. The brass shows a bit of pressure, with mildly flattened primers, but when I look at the gun it almost looks like the chamber failed and just blew out through the ejection port opening. I've seen a lot of damaged guns but never one that looks like this before. Do you have all the pieces? It would be interesting to see the small pieces. GH Update: You might want to take a look at this: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/25/1911-blown-up/" rel="nofollow - http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/25/1911-blown-up/ ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2016 at 8:03pm
| I don't have all the small Pieces i was in the mountain shooting behind my house, which most people do here we have our places and plenty of targets for all ! Ill post some close ups. How about the height and width of the picture settings??? |
Posted By: DANKO
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2016 at 8:15pm
here is the disclaimer on back of box 
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Posted By: Luvz2Shoot
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2016 at 9:47pm
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".....loaded to maximum SAAMI+P pressures....." WOW!!! Sounds like a 50AE+P load similar to the "hot" 9mm+P (et al the "hot" +P loads that we are familiar with). I have never heard of a 50AE+P load before. If that is what these guys are claiming. Add this to the fact that the chamber of the AMT-V is thin-walled***, and I can see how this could have happened. (***This was pointed out to me by someone shortly after I bought my AMT-V, before I had a chance to shoot it. Ever since then I have never even wanted to shoot it.) Sorry about your -V. I wonder how "violent" these would feel in the Desert Eagle? ------------- If you were happy and you knew it, would you clap your hands? |
Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 10:35am
I would steer clear of Mag Safe in any of my pistols....(stated we disclaim any liability!) 
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Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 10:26pm
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I would shoot it in a DE after checking each round in a go/no go type gauge. Pretty sure the only way it would damage an Eagle is if it fired out of battery. Even then, might only blow the mag out the bottom. Actually had that happen w/ an STI 2011 in .38super(also cracked the plastic grip frame). ------------- 'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 10:52pm
Maybe they will come out with some Chamber Safe ammo.  ------------- An armed society is a polite society. |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 11:10pm
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So if it makes it out of the chamber without blowing apart, you should be good to go??? I'm still surprised by how badly this gun failed and there were no injuries. I'm thinking I wont be shooting one,,, I've put many heavy loaded rounds through a DE and not even a hint of a problem, this is a troubling situation. GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 12:38am
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I have put hundreds of rds thru my "V" and never had a hint of an issue. I think it was more the ammo(+P) issue then the gun. Was the "V" rated for +P? Was +P ammo available when the "V" was made. Maybe it was a bad run of ammo or just bad luck. Hope he will get answer to this and post up.
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Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 11:14am
have to agree with George i wont be shooting one either....he was lucky 
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Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 11:49am
All guns were made to use. To each his own, but I shot my V in the past and will continue to do so...but NOT with magUNsafe ammunition. If a caliber is marked on the gun(50AE), you should be able to use ALL ammunition manufactured for this caliber (50AE) +P or not. It does not matter what warninglabel you put on the package, if it fits the chamber for that caliber, someone will try it in the gun. They can because it's the correct caliber indication!If the ammo is not safe to use for that caliber, the manufacturer must made it iIf you shoot 38spl +P in a s&w model 36, it won't explode with the first round. It will stretch from continue use of the +P and fail at some point, but it will not explode. The maximum SAAMI pressure for the .50 AE is 35000 Psi. What the "safe" max pressure is for Here in Europe we use the CIP standard for ammo testing. All ammunition sold here is required to have this cip label. Meaning manufacturers (or importers) must provide a European proofhouse samples of the ammo which is tested in the proofhouse to see if the ammo is safe within the CIP regulations. CIP pressure tests are the same all over Europe. If for some reason the provided ammo is NOT CIP conform, the whole batch is not approved and can't be sold. This test is required with every new batch imported or manufactured. I could buy factory 50AE ammo overhere from Hornady, IMI, Speer. Those have the CIP label and can be trusted. I never saw magsafe overhere... My AMT V is CIP tested and approved, so they are strong enough for safe use:  No reason for NOT shooting this pistol...  Picture for the IMI Samson 300 grains JSP CIP approved, the letter L in circle with crown on top is the CIP proofmark:   |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 1:43pm
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I guess this CIP standard is something, but in all honesty I would have more questions about it than faith it is a true qualitative assessment. How is this testing done, in what volume, by whom, ETC, Etc, etc. The reality of our world is that poor or limited testing (with best intentions) can too often amount to nothing. Usage, production variances, quality inconsistency per batch and over time, wear and tear, metal stress, human and machine error, all add up to disaster if the testing is poor, limited, done by minimally trained staff or uninvested staff, or tired staff and all under what conditions, in a lab under perfect temp/humidity/at sea level/etc. Not saying don't test at all, I'm saying meaningful testing is expensive, done several times by different people, under varying conditions, and MANY times! Think of the Pasadena sales picture of the gun on a pile of brass. There was a similar picture of the Beretta 92 when they were trying to get the US govt to adopt it. Sure there are cases where limited testing is sufficient, but thats usually when something fails quickly/easily. I dont have any answers about this, hence my saying I wont be shooting one not even just to try it, its just not worth it to me. And this CIP testing is certainly better than nothing, but just how extensive it is, well I'm doubting they are running any significant number of rounds of varied ammo through any single gun. And running a few rounds or even a box through of a single brand and type of ammo will only produce a limited finding. So we are back to, what testing did AMT do? That would be very helpful to know. Regardless of all the above, this gun blew up! Its suffered a catastrophic failure, of a critical part and the shooter was at risk for injury. Everyone should look very closely at that picture and then carefully inspect their guns before shooting them again. Then going forward these guns should be shot with carefully selected ammo and very closely inspected on a pretty regular bases or risk similar failure and possible injury. You can argue these cautions, karma often protects those who walk blindly into the puddle, my karma is such if in knowingly walk blindly into the puddle it will be up to my ankles! So as I said, I will not be shooting one. For those who do continue to use them, I hope with all sincerity you never suffer that kind of failure. GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 2:19pm
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Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 3:03pm
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Hi George, About the CIP standard and testing, you can find more info at the link: http://www.bancdepreuves.be/homologation-controle-des-munitions.asp" rel="nofollow - http://www.bancdepreuves.be/homologation-controle-des-munitions.asp if you can read French or Flemish. Sorry they have no English website. This is the Belgian proofhouse, and they are the only independed authority to prooftesting guns and ammo for our country. They have special equipment for ammotesting (pressure). About testing firearms, EACH firearm sold in Belgium and other countries IS tested with a (30%) overloaded pressure cartridge.That's the reason you see the stamps (markings) on all guns in europe. No-one can sell an uproofed firearm overhere. So, with this CIP testing, we know that the AMT V didn't blew up at a 30% higher pressure than standard CIP rounds. Thus George, stating that this pistol is a troubling situation makes no sence to me. That is what CIP aproval is all about, if the ammunition is within the CIP standard, the pistol should not be explode in normal conditions. Not talking about bore obstruction etc.... In case of the Original poster, he said the gun blew up at the first magsafe round. Sooo, how much pressure was the +P 50AE round then???? About testing costs, yes it's not cheap, but nobody selling firearms overhere can't get around this. Maybe that's why people don't understand why things here cost twice the price as in the US  I agree with you that testing every single bullet is impossible, but in the worst case we have some indication about batches of ammo. Ammo has batch numbers, data etc. so each lotnumber should have the same components and give the same result in testing. If you have more cartridges from the same lotnumber, you have something to prove or make a point. If they are not within CIP standards, you can start a lawsuit, but then again, good lawyers are expensive to Like I said, to each his own, but if a pistol has passed the prooftest with +30% pressure, I would'n say it's unsafe to shoot one with good reliable ammo or safe reloads. (If you know what you're doing) As far the ammo, that's the hardest part to proof what happend, all we see is that the gun blew up, what exactly was in the shell no one will ever know... One thing is for sure, it was more that enough  ,and I'm not the one trying to find out should Danko has some ammo left over...  |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2016 at 11:17pm
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Well I did a bit more research and +P is not a fixed pressure increase, and so far as I can find there is no formal accepted 50AE +P standard. In some cases +P may only be an additional 10% pressure increase, but in other cases it can be much, much more. I found one instance where it was double, so the CIP 30% would never catch that as a problem. But truth be told the single round 30% over-pressurized test of one gun is a good baseline, but in no way makes up for a lack of extensive manufacturer testing of many, many rounds in several guns, and with a spectrum of ammo, including seriously over-loaded ammo. Wishful thinking on my part, but I would only hope in a top end performance gun like a 50AE, that the manufacturers would test it with the most powder you could fit in the case to see how their gun holds up and to ensure that safety margin. I know for 100% fact I can load my 357 & 44 AMP rounds up with a full case of the specified powder for this round (WW-296) and it will not explode. Do I risk damage to it, YES, but I will not see the chamber fail and blowout. I cannot say that we have established anything about the Automag V and about Magsafe 50AE, but after the little I have seen and read, both leave me without 100% comfort and with way too much concern. So for me, there will be no shooting of either product. I hope this was a singular event and that we are fortunate enough to never see an Automag damaged this badly again. Lets hope this was the first and last such event. GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |