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AMT load chart

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TRX302 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 9:38am
The common way of viewing a bullet's travel is to think of it as moving in a straight line. With repeated shots, you see a group size. This is normally figured statistically as a probable deviation from theoretical point of impact. The math is repeated in various ballistics books, but if there's any mention of *why* all the bullets don't go into the same hole, it's attributed to either the wind or the shooter.

Back in 1909 Franklin Mann wrote a book called "The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target." It's out of copyright and you can download it here: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_bullet_s_flight_from_powder_to_targe.html?id=QdQqAAAAYAAJ

Mann was what they used to call a "gun crank" back in the old days. He experimented with all sorts of stuff and documented it in detail.

He mostly used a naked action bolted to a giant concrete test stand. In one set of experiments he set up tissue-paper screens at intervals between the muzzle and backstop and demonstrated, via the positions of the holes in the screens, how a bullet actually travels after it leaves the muzzle. He repeated the tests many times with different calibers, bullets, and loads.

What Mann found (1) was that a bullet doesn't travel in a straight line. The spin imparted by the rifling stabilizes the bullet be comparison to a smoothbore, but the spin in turn causes a spiral trajectory. Think of a big conical spring. This is the conical shape that defines the impact area.

Let's say you put together a new rifle. You bore-sight it with your laser, take it to the range, and it prints about 4 inches down at 4 o'clock. You twiddle the scope to move the group into the bullseye. Later, you try different ammunition, and your group moves an inch up and over at 2 o'clock.

The probable reason is that the new ammunition has a different muzzle velocity or the bullets have a different ballistic coefficient. The load may be just as accurate - that is, the group size is the same - but it's printing on a different part of the target because the conical path of the bullet is a bit tighter or looser, so it's hitting the target at a different position on the path.

Any change in the velocity of the bullet means it will hit the target in a different position.

Mann's book has pictures of the tissue-paper screens. I'd kinda-sorta known about the conical path, but seeing how the bullet walked   around the screens brought it all home.

Other than weighing your bullets and making sure none are damaged, they're pretty much a given. The primer, powder, and neck tension are your big influences on velocity. That's why serious target shooters eliminate as much variation as they can. Any change in velocity means the group will get bigger.

Yes, yes, I'm trying to make a point. Hold your horses.

Another thing I'd known was that for the same cartridge, some loads are more accurate than others. You start with one load, then work up or down a bit at a time, then you change powders and do it all over again. The guys with the little notebooks at the range, that's what they're doing, keeping track of the group size for each different load. Eventually you find what the gun likes.

I've kept those little notebooks myself. But I've never had a chance to play with a chronograph, and I'd never come across any chronograph data showing variation among the same string; just between different loads.

There's a perfect example of such a table in Bruce Stark's Automag book. On page 111, it reproduces a chart of Bob B.'s trip to the range on May 7, 1971. He tested XP005 with 47 different loads. The book doesn't say how many shots were fired for each load, but the table lists average velocity (which is common) and the spread of velocities, which is not.

Oh, my.

Bob tested H-110, 1020, 630-P, 2400, 4227, WC-295, and Unique. I've used all of them in one cartridge or another, except for 1020, which I'm not familiar with. However, it's the most interesting one in the table. You've probably read about powders that didn't like light bullets or reduced charges; this must surely be a good (bad?) example. A 180 grain bullet over 19 grains of 1020 had a 430 fps velocity spread. That batch probably printed like a shotgun. Bear in mind this is for the SAME load in each case. On the other hand, a 240 grain bullet over the same 19 grains gave the tightest spread on the table - 4 fps. Meaning it has a chance of being the most accurate load. There are other important factors in accuracy, but if you can't get the velocity spread under control, you're hosed before you start.

I could probably find more data like that on the internet, now that I know what to look for. If you have a copy of the book it's worth flipping to page 111 and examining the table even if you're not a reloader.


note 1 - it was known before Mann, but as far as I can tell he was the first to actually *show* it in print for ordinary schmucks to see
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 3:36am
Dead Well I had to re-read that one twice before I think I got the upshot of your message which is that good ammo is a key to accuracy.  And I think we would all agree with that.
 
Not sure I am fully following all you are saying, especially about why the bullets dont all go into the same hole.  But the concept that its either the wind or the shooter is clearly quite incomplete.
 
I cannot comment on any of Manns work as I have not read his publications, but I can tell you that not only is it possible for a series of bullets to go into the same hole, precision shooters (benchrest) do it regularly, well some do,,,  Or maybe this is not whats in question in your post???
 
There are countless problems to overcome to reach this mythical "one hole" result, and even a very talented shooter will never pull it off with either amateur hand-loaded ammo (or even factory ammo) and using production guns. 
 
If you know anything about benchrest shooting its costly, and a lot of work but the results are a level of precision well beyond what we normally discuss here.  These guys have all kinds of tricks of the trade to get 5 rounds into the same hole, but when it all comes together it is a sight to behold!
 
Not sure if this "spiral trajectory" theory is a factor, a fantasy, or factoid of no importance, but from what I have been told by a pro he only has 10 pieces of brass at any time that are matched to each of his custom lapped - cryo treated - custom crowned Bbl's, and the bullets are NOT off the shelf grade nor amateur home-made, and the brass is not FL resized between loadings.  And thats just one part of the recipe of a very complex equation that produces the "one hole" grouping.
 
Any benchrest shooters here that can educate us about what it takes to get to a one-hole result???  I for one would really enjoy hearing more about this. Big smile
 
gh
Who was that masked man,,,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRX302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 11:40am
> I think I got the upshot of your message which is that good ammo is
> a key to accuracy.

Yes, but I used a lot more words to say it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Auto Mag Auto Mag wrote:

Dead Well I had to re-read that one twice before I think I got the upshot of your message which is that good ammo is a key to accuracy.  And I think we would all agree with that.
 
Not sure I am fully following all you are saying, especially about why the bullets dont all go into the same hole.  But the concept that its either the wind or the shooter is clearly quite incomplete.
 
I cannot comment on any of Manns work as I have not read his publications, but I can tell you that not only is it possible for a series of bullets to go into the same hole, precision shooters (benchrest) do it regularly, well some do,,,  Or maybe this is not whats in question in your post???
 
There are countless problems to overcome to reach this mythical "one hole" result, and even a very talented shooter will never pull it off with either amateur hand-loaded ammo (or even factory ammo) and using production guns. 
 
If you know anything about benchrest shooting its costly, and a lot of work but the results are a level of precision well beyond what we normally discuss here.  These guys have all kinds of tricks of the trade to get 5 rounds into the same hole, but when it all comes together it is a sight to behold!
 
Not sure if this "spiral trajectory" theory is a factor, a fantasy, or factoid of no importance, but from what I have been told by a pro he only has 10 pieces of brass at any time that are matched to each of his custom lapped - cryo treated - custom crowned Bbl's, and the bullets are NOT off the shelf grade nor amateur home-made, and the brass is not FL resized between loadings.  And thats just one part of the recipe of a very complex equation that produces the "one hole" grouping.
 
Any benchrest shooters here that can educate us about what it takes to get to a one-hole result???  I for one would really enjoy hearing more about this. Big smile
 
gh
Years ago I did a lot of Benchest Shooting and Long Range Precision Shooting.What one needs to do with a turnbolt rifle and a recoil operated auto-loading pistol are a ways apart.  The main thing they have in common is everything needs to be perfectly concentric to obtain maximum accuracy.
 
Books can be written about the Benchrest procedures and unless you are doing it, it is pretty boring stuff.
 
I found TRX302's writeup on the "Spiraling" projectiles interesting.  It was not uncommon to have a particular load shoot tighter groups at 600 yds than it would at 300 yds in the Long Range game.  We called this settling down of the Bullet's path "Going to Sleep".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jurras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 9:46pm
Much to complex to be either posted or accurately (pun intended) discussed here, too many on this post are not familar enough with basic loading tecnique to discuss. Now bring in the differences between a turn bolt action and a semi auto as complex as the AM as to recoil impulse same grip tension from shot to shot and you have a hornets nest of discussion.
Mann's work is way over the head of the average handloader and or AM collector. JMHO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AutoMagyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 2:45am
Originally posted by TRX302 TRX302 wrote:


Back in 1909 Franklin Mann wrote a book called "The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target." It's out of copyright and you can download it here: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_bullet_s_flight_from_powder_to_targe.html?id=QdQqAAAAYAAJ

Mann was what they used to call a "gun crank" back in the old days. He experimented with all sorts of stuff and documented it in detail.


As usual, a great post from TRX302.  Thanks for putting us on to that book by Mann, as technical as it gets, I think I'll find it a good read. That old book is crammed with interesting findings from one of the higher minds of days gone by, one of the founding fathers of ballistics research perhaps?  A very in-depth study from what I see on first blush, although I've barely made a dent in reading it all.  Even though it's a big book, I may print it our because I have a hard time looking at a computer screen for that long.

However (Public Service Message Here Big smile ), I just wanted to let you all know, I couldn't get a download for that old book from the Google link mentioned.  So, after searching on the web for this book, here is a working link I found, where you CAN download the book from (just in case anyone had the same problem I did):
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/default.html
After you get there, you have to search down the list for the book title.
If you somehow wind up at the main menu (home page of castpics.net), you can also get back there by selecting "Articles", then pick "Classic Works".  Then just search through the list of other books for the "Bullet's Flight from...." book that TRX302 referred to.

BTW, there's a wealth of other old firearms reference books on that site, all for free downloading, for those out there like me that can't pass up browsing through funky old freebie books. Thumbs Up Can't beat free.
I'm bookmarking it for future use.
Cheers.

"Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jurras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 3:28am
The internet is a wonderful thing, so is my Kindle. Sometimes there is no substitute to a good reference library. There are several good tech books comparable to Mann's " The bullets Flight".Sharpe's "Complete guide to Handloading" for one. I'll look in my library and name several more . Yes I spent several thousand dollars over 40 plus years accumulating this library.
To many people on this site want instant answers, there is no such animal even i this eletronic age. Study and reading will add several answers, then experimentation based on these studies.
 Its just like getting a college degree then putting it to actual work.
A quick answer on this site just doesn't cut it. IMNSHO  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by jurras jurras wrote:

Much to complex to be either posted or accurately (pun intended) discussed here, too many on this post are not familar enough with basic loading tecnique to discuss. Now bring in the differences between a turn bolt action and a semi auto as complex as the AM as to recoil impulse same grip tension from shot to shot and you have a hornets nest of discussion.
Mann's work is way over the head of the average handloader and or AM collector. JMHO
 
Actually loading Benchrest rounds with L E Wilson neck dies and arbor presses looks somewhat primitive compared to the Combat Shooter's auto feeding progressive presses.  Small quantities all done the same to get accuracy.
 
In my opinion, Benchrest shooting was like many of the shooting sports is an equipment game.  Without the right equipment one could not compete.
 
The most impressive thing I remember that changed the sport was when Palmisano and Pindel introduced their 6mm PPC cartridge and literally overnight the best shooters with the best equipment in the country could not compete against them.  Quite an achievement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 3:46am
Originally posted by jurras jurras wrote:

Much to complex to be either posted or accurately (pun intended) discussed here, too many on this post are not familar enough with basic loading tecnique to discuss. Now bring in the differences between a turn bolt action and a semi auto as complex as the AM as to recoil impulse same grip tension from shot to shot and you have a hornets nest of discussion.
Mann's work is way over the head of the average handloader and or AM collector. JMHO
I resemble that remark! Dead
 
Seriously.
 
And as I subscribe to the standard that "a mans gotta know his limitations" I feel fully comfortable saying that benchrest shooting is beyond my skills or maybe beyond my level of desire, and I'm not willing to devote the effort required.  It looks like too much work, and I have too many other interests,,,
 
I'm interested, just not enough,,,Wink
 
gh
Who was that masked man,,,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jurras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2012 at 3:18am
Well George whatever turns your crank. BR shooting subscibes to a level of consentration and equipment that few shooters have or desire. Kinda like a race car mechanic, Either a Formula one car or your local Chevy dealer. This does not make him a lesser mech, his interest takes him to a certain level. Not a question of likeability or a lesser person.
But he has no business discussing high performance engines w/o extreme study and or work. And asking the formula 1 mech questions would be a work in progress. And the F1 would be strained no matter how nice a guy he might be.
A P.S. to my Big Bore Seminar post. For a shooter that has an interest there is nobody that will not let you shoot their handgun or Rifle. For a shooter who might like to test fire before he thinks about a purchase this is a wonderful oportunity.  Cheers.
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