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Topic ClosedThe New Automag Part 1

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Travis Morgan View Drop Down
International Auto Mag
International Auto Mag
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Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2018 at 5:50am
Originally posted by AMPNBS AMPNBS wrote:

Has anyone else noticed the similarity?

Lol LOL too funny! Congrats, you just made me snort my coffee all over another keyboardTongue 

Well, if they don't have a name for their new AutoMag break-in device/machine, maybe they can call it a "FUGGA9NdeCHICEB0LSEN" like the one in this video?

Here's one that'll do three AutoMags at one time .... or is it three AutoMag pre-order customers at once .... or maybe just one customer at a time?

Who knew? the technology was already available. Lol


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cjack40dog View Drop Down
Baby Auto Mag
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2018 at 6:12pm
Totally Agree Joe. One of mine was custom made by Larry and both have always performed flawlessly! Rather have one from the Garage than one from we'll who even knows where or when anymore Confused 
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KMP View Drop Down
International Auto Mag
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Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2018 at 4:10pm
They just need to redevelop the pistol and eliminate the bolt rotation spring. That would solve the problem of those with weak hands and will make the pistol more reliable. 

My two cents...

Eric
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Bellarmament View Drop Down
International Auto Mag
International Auto Mag


Joined: 17 May 2016
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2018 at 8:47pm
Geesh guys! Why all the mean spirited comments?

First of all Patrick posts videos as progress is being made. I feel many times in haste without adequate explanation or before the test fixture is finished or implemented properly. The first video shows the cycler running damaged frames with cocking pieces and recoil springs and rods merely to test function and pull distance. The cycler is intended to run in the vertical position with barrels facing downward. The weight of the pull devices and pull arms is negated in this position. The pistol I use for testing has run on the cycler in the horizontal position for hours on end with no damage to the cocking piece or any other parts and with only minimal recoil spring compression degradation noted after 3000 cycles.

The cycler is beneficial in reducing friction by marrying the moving parts (break in) and lightly lapping the bolt and extension lugs for uniform even lug contact. This makes for a smooth operating pistol and the pistols will still be proof fired and test fired before sending them out. We are not the only company that uses a cycler. The cocking pieces are NOT damaged by the cycler. The pistols are disassembled to check for any spring memory issues or inconsistent wear patterns or any other issues during the final quality control inspection. We plan to cycle each pistol 200 times. If an Auto Mag cannot stand two minutes for 200 cycles on the cycler without issue before proof and test firing right before final disassembly and inspection I personally do not feel the pistol is worth having. The way the bolts were lapped in the old days was by shoving the muzzle down onto a pad to grind them in or smacking the muzzle with a dead blow hammer. Guess many of you weren't there to see this happening at the factory.

The cycler is also beneficial in testing service life wear by letting a pistol run on the cycler for hours or days. We can look for parts that wear excessively and adjust material and or heat treat and gauge spring memory or spring degradation and remedy the situation. Enough on the cycler. Call it a sex toy if it makes you feel better.

As far as the bolt cams or ears are concerned I imagine the introduction of a billet steel hardened 17-4 cocking piece with the improved pull test of over 30% before cocking piece deformation and close to 40% improvement in shear strength where damage will only occur in the cocking piece is silly at best according to some. We have been unable to destroy or damage a cocking piece or bolt during testing firing over 200rds of off the charts experimental only 250gr Sierra bullets at 1870fps from a 6.5 inch barrel and speeds of 2000fps from a 17 inch barrel with no damage.

The pistol I am testing now uses a decreased lock time by reducing by a few degrees the time it takes for the firing pin to be struck by the hammer. And no it has fired thousand of rounds with no ill effects and does not go full auto. The return of the bolt to lock up does not occur at the velocity the hammer is slapped rearward during firing. The hammer merely follows the the bottom of the bolt and upward as it crosses the cocking piece and is met by the sear this speed is even further reduced when stripping a cartridge out of a magazine. The reduced lock time improves shooter accuracy and is actually in degrees a greater distance to the firing pin than a common 1911 pistol. Probably won't be implemented because the average shooter would probably not notice the difference but it does work nicely.

I had the opportunity to shoot mostly all of the Founders Edition pistols. Granted most will be safe queens but they need to perform also in my humble opinion. I found no Founders Editions would shoot over 20rds without a malfunction while most would not fire a magazine of seven rounds without some failure. This was with 240 Hornady XTP at 1450fps. The pistols also would not function with 1250, 1300 or 1350 fps ammunition. The current test pistol has a redesigned accelerator that does NOT peen the frame and I am shooting from 980fps up to the Hornady recommended maximum loads with no issues with barrel lengths from 6.5 inches to 17 inches whether or not the pistol is limp wristed or strong wristed.

We also built a Universal receiver that allows the use of the newly produced Auto Mag barrels so we compare apples to apples. Most universal receivers require a special pressure test barrel. That is fine if you are only looking at the internal ballistics of pressure peak and curve but useless for destructive testing in the thin accelerator cutout area opposite the chamber (slightly over .090). We can use transducers and strain gauges at the same time and verify info and test effects of excessive head space, over pressure, cartridge case life to the point of primer or cartridge casing failure and destructive testing up to and including metallurgical barrel failure. Hardly a waste of time in my opinion.

I am also testing a quick change barrel version that the consumer can change in the field. Why? Even though the entire upper can be changed in just a few seconds I feel it is great to have a shooter/ hunter package that does not require the extra expenditure for the barrel extensions and bolts when it is not necessary or economical. The non ribbed barrels are lighter which is a plus on the longer lengths. Same bolt is used and only one barrel extension is used. I have tested the quick change model in numerous barrel lengths 6.5. 8.5, 12,and 17 inches. No you don't need 500lbs of torque to hold the barrel in place. The M240, M249 and M60 and many other designs simply use a lever lock to hold the barrel in place and fire many thousands of rounds with no issues at all. Heck a 50BMG barrel is screwed into a Ma Deuce by hand. Also there is a new butt stock and forearm design that is sound and is more shooter friendly and they do not rattle and shake like a rusty gate after a few rounds and is not NFA regulated when used with 16 inch plus barrels. These will be offered in reinforced polymer or any grade walnut you like for the wood and metal guys. Same iron is used on the wood and polymer so just buy what you want or both. We want you guys to have a safe  pistol that works properly and is enjoyable. Not some thrown together "mass produced production gun" that you have to make excuses for when you go to the range.

As far as the head space/lug space gauge for .357amp and .44 amp. Patrick has authorized a vendor to manufacture these and they will be sold on the website when received. I just do not have the time to make these myself.

As far as the .22 caliber drop in conversion. The drop in barrel does not damage the .44amp or .45 win mag barrel. This was done for European customers who are limited to a small number of pistols but are not faulted for drop in conversions. They are faulted for dedicated uppers counting as a pistol. It works nicely and we have .22 and .22 magnum and will sell these on the web site when available and yes we will make a .22 and .22 magnum dedicated upper if there is enough interest.

As far as the clocking recoil rods and helicoil failure in the past we have a design that uses locks similar to what holds the valves in your automobile engine. We are still testing this and it shows great promise. No more clocking recoil rods. Simply push the recoil rod rearward and remove the two locks and remove the recoil rods and springs. Heck you can do it with a tooth pick. lol

The bolt design and endurance testing with plating passed all testing with flying colors after correcting the left side magazine clearance slot was shortened to negate biting the top of the hold open when the last round was being loaded and the cut in the bolt for hold open engagement was redesigned to not grab a round for a hard jam if the bolt was not fully retracted during manual loading. Why the plating? Adds to the wear resistance, lubricity and is a rust inhibitor. The bolt is 8620 which is a great bolt steel but it will rust.The nickel is very close to the same color of the stainless steel.

So what is the hold up now? The frames! You think you hear excuses? We get them by the bushel. Vendors running late from the supply of certified material (we will NOT use Chinese steel), vendors with excuses of everything imaginable in the supply chain, casting companies that talk a good game but after research bow out and the list goes on and on. We are in the process of writing the programs to mill a billet frame and are working with another casting company that we feel is up to the task. One way or the other billet or cast we will see it through. Finding a good casting company that will guarantee their work is harder than finding a good roofer after a hurricane. Everyone involved is in to deep to give up now.

At any rate Patrick Hogue is doing a great job with the grips. I especially like the G10 grips. We will soon be getting jet black G10 grips that look like the original North Hollywood grips. Buddy at SBR is working to come up with a load with a similar pressure curve to WW296 that will shoot cleaner with less muzzle flash. Both are great guys who do great work. Our friends in Ohio always do great work on the bolts, barrels and barrel extensions.


As far as all of the flawlessly functioning "working" prototype designs and flawlessly functioning Auto Mag pistols I only have one question. Where are the videos? Lets see some multiple mag dumps with no hiccups with ammunition other than one pet load or even with that pet load.  The only videos I have seen lately of the old Auto Mag are full of failures to feed, eject and failures to fire.

As far as parts breaking once in a blue moon? We get calls weekly from people with old Auto Mag pistols with broken parts or severely damaged bolts, frames and cocking pieces and bent recoil rods. Blue moons must be pretty common nowadays.

As far as the moniker "TINKER BELL" I don't mind it at all. My grandfather affectionately referred to his first cousin as Tinker Bell. His name was Larry Dale Bell the founder of Bell Aircraft Corporation.

If you are tired of all the so called BS just imagine how tired we are of having to deal with all of the metallurgical testing, high speed video, ballistic testing, vendor excuses, delays and forum pummeling. I presently do work for three gun companies and stay backed up. I am getting old and stay tired and am ill most of the time. Sometimes I ask myself "why bother", I don't need Auto Mag. Answer is: it is a challenge and many of my friends are vendors who have a lot riding on the success of the new Auto Mag.

Well I guess I have taken up enough of your time with my long winded post. I do apologize. I am sure there are quite a few people on the forum foaming at the mouth and who are probably just seething for a chance to disparage the people or ridicule those dealing with the difficulties we are encountering and slowly but surely surmounting.

My thanks to all who have supported us with patience and encouragement.

Kind regards
Tim





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AndyC View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2018 at 11:06pm
Well said, Tim, and thanks for the info - if I have to put on a skirt and pom-poms to be a cheerleader for the cause, I damn well will! (might be a nasty sight, but....)

Question on the bolt plating - might this be something like electroless nickel-phosphorus, as used in drilling tools? I know from experience that 11% or thereabouts nickel-phos is a slick, seamless corrosion-resistant layer that works well for moving gun-parts, so I'm curious.
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BEEMER1 View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 12:18am
Tim will know better but I believe it is the nickel/boron that most of the AR builders have gone to.
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Bellarmament View Drop Down
International Auto Mag
International Auto Mag


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 12:42am
Thanks for the support Andy,

You just about hit the nail on the head. The plating is electroless nickel with boron additive. Super tough and slick.

After several platers we found the plater that actually introduced electroless nickel boron to the firearms industry. They do a great job that is consistent in build which is extremely important when tolerances have to be adhered to. Also you won't find little flecks of nickel loose in your pistol when cleaning your gun. Very happy with the platers.

Kind regards
Tim
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International Auto Mag
International Auto Mag


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 12:44am
You are correct  Beemer1 on the plating.

Thanks
Tim
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Bellarmament View Drop Down
International Auto Mag
International Auto Mag


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 1:27am
Originally posted by KMP KMP wrote:

They just need to redevelop the pistol and eliminate the bolt rotation spring. That would solve the problem of those with weak hands and will make the pistol more reliable. 

My two cents...

Eric


Hi Eric,

Hope you are doing well.

I have found that the hammer springs are the main initial resistance  when manually charging the pistol with the hammer down. This is when the recoil springs only have the preload pressure and the bolt has to move roughly .100 rearward before the tension on the rotation spring increases as the bolt is cammed by the helix rotation in the bolt slot against the bolt rotation pin. I find the pistol is hard to manually charge from the onset due to the hammer springs and then resistance increases as the rotation spring is compressed the 21.5 degrees and the compression resistance of the recoil springs builds as the cocking piece is pulled rearward to the cessation of travel. The bolt rotation spring is only compressed 21.5 degrees on top of a slight preload when charging and is not difficult to move that distance when holding a rotation spring out of the pistol with your fingers ( I may have unusually strong fingers though). I know cocking the hammer before charging negates the resistance of the inner and outer hammer springs but feel it should be easy to manually charge  with the hammer down. No matter what you do you cannot get rid of the recoil springs and that is where quite a bit of the resistance to manually charging the pistol arises.

I have been working on a design similar to the Para Ordnance  LDA. Even though the Auto Mag is a single action pistol a similar design can be utilized. I am sure you know but for those who don't the bolt traveling rearward cocks the pistol and the hammer springs remain tensioned and captured and that energy is only released when the trigger is pulled. Only problem is there is not much room in the frame to make the necessary mods to accommodate this system. I do not want to see any change to the looks of the pistol. That is any more than has already been done with the upper.

I have removed the rotation spring from a bolt and measured the difference ( about 6 lb increase) with hammer down and hammer cocked it is still difficult for some to manually retract the bolt with the hammer down even though the bolt is not using a rotation spring and does not cam over into battery. Generally we find that it takes roughly 28 lbs of pull force to manually charge the Auto Mag with the hammer down. Quite a bit to pull with your thumb and forefinger.

If you have any suggestions I am all ears.

Kind regards
Tim
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dbailey View Drop Down
180 Auto Mag
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 3:52am
Thanks for the update, Tim. 
I, for one, believe in what you guys are doing. Patrick and y’all are being very open and transparent. I have no doubt that when I do get my hands on my FE, it will be perfect. 
Let the haters hate. 
David Bailey
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