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357 and 44 AMP chronograph fun

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Category: Auto Mag Pistol
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URL: http://www.amtguns.info/forum_posts.asp?TID=2513
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 8:27pm
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Topic: 357 and 44 AMP chronograph fun
Posted By: Pantera Mike
Subject: 357 and 44 AMP chronograph fun
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 1:12am
I just got a chronograph and was interested to see how my 357 and 44 AMP handloads were doing, and also compare my 44 loads to SBR factory ammo.

Today, I was shooting 44 AMP with 240gr Hornady XTP bullets, Starline cases, WLP primers, and WW-296 powder, and using SBR ammo as a control measure. 

I fired three, five-shot strings with SBR, with the following average results:

1400
1395
1391

I then turned to my reloads. I purposely started near the lower end of the recommended loads (using Hornady data), and found they were all too light to cycle the action properly. Every round resulted in a short stroke, and either a jam (failure to feed with the round stuck halfway out of the magazine) or a dry fire, as it failed to pick up the next round at all. In any case, here are the results:

20.5 — 1166
21.0 — 1192
21.5 — 1220
22.0 — 1246
22.5 — 1289

Only once using 22.5 grains, the action cycled properly. Clearly I will have to turn up the steam.  The max published load is 23.8 grains. I’m confident I will have success with 23.0-23.5 grains.  Time to head back to the loading bench. 

I also shot 357 Auto Mag with 158 Gr Hornady XTP bullets, Starline cases, WLP primers, and WW-296 powder, with both 6.5 and 8.5-inch barrels. Here are average results:

6.5-inch:

21.5 — 1632
22.0 — 1631
22.5 — 1686

8.5-inch:

22.0 — 1770
22.5 — 1788

The extra two inches of barrel length delivers an additional 100-150 FPS, not as significant as I expected. Functioning was flawless with 100% reliability with both guns. I have generally had much better luck with the 357 AMP than 44 AMP, for various unknown reasons.....

Today was also the first time I fired my Smith and Wesson Model 27 N-frame revolver, rechambered for 357/44 Bain and Davis. The B&D is philosophically similar to 357 AMP, formed my necking down 44 Magnum cases to accept a 357 bullet. 

I used old Hornady data with the expectation that I would not get to go all the way up to their max load, since their data was tested in and intended for the T/C Contender. I was using new Midway cases, WLP primers and WW-296 powder, with Hornady 158gr XTP bullets, and my Model 27 has a 6.5-inch barrel. The average velocity for five-shot strings was:

20.0 — 1469
20.5 — 1485
21.0 — 1472
21.5 — 1546
22.0 — 1552
22.5 — 1585

I started getting adverse pressure indications at 22.5, in the form of slightly flattened primers and difficult case extraction, so I stopped there although I had loaded rounds through 24.0 (24.9 was max published). 

It is very fun to shoot, although one could make the case that similar results could be achieved more easily by simply ignoring published 357 Magnum data and overloading those cases, to bring them up to 1935-era pressures and performance. I suspect if you were to find a box of 357 Magnum factory ammo from the late 1930s it would deliver similar performance to the B&D, but these days the cartridge has been downloaded due to the preponderance of revolvers having smaller, lighter frames.  The max load for 357 Magnum using 296 in the Hornady book is 1250 FPS.

Now that I know where the limits are, I will likely brew up a few batches of 21.5 and 22.0 and shoot for accuracy next time. I have a feeling it will be very effective. 

The Auto Mag gets about 75-100 FPS more than the B&D with the same load and barrel length, likely due to the lack of the barrel/chamber gap. Barrel length is slightly misleading because automatic barrels include the chamber as part of the barrel length.  So the 6.5 inch Auto Mag barrel is really more like 5 inches of actual barrel. 

Fun stuff!



Replies:
Posted By: AndyC
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 5:19pm
Mike, your 22.5gr at 1289 is only 11 fps off my average (using H110, same as W296):


Some went a little higher, some lower - I'm blaming the Hornady electronic powder-heaver for this (although I'm pretty sure I have something to do with it) ;)

My 6.5 TDE does cycle and lock at 22.5, even though I put in new Wolff recoil-springs (.200") in it before testing.


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http://bane.2hell.com" rel="nofollow - My Iraq Pics


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 5:36pm
My "generic" 44 AMP load for over 20 years has been a Hornady 240 gr XTP over 23.5 gr of WW 296 in a CDM or Norma case with a CCI-350 primer.

It works well in most guns and is both accurate and powerful enough for medium game or for shooting pins or plates.

Its not flame thrower and not a 44 Special.

I always keep some of this load on hand, and for many years it has proven to be a good universal 44 AMP load in guns that are in good mechanical shape and have reasonable/proper tolerances. 

Broken or lunchbox guns are a whole separate problem, and in my experiencing no load will fix those guns, thats a mechanical problem. 

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 6:53pm
SBR is loading 23.5 grains of H110/296 in their 240 grain loads.


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

SBR is loading 23.5 grains of H110/296 in their 240 grain loads.

That’s very helpful info. I will brew up a batch of 23.0 and see what happens, and step up to 23.5 if needed.....



Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 7:37pm
23 - 23.5 gr is a modest load, when you hit 25 gr you need to be careful, the gun needs to be right and you are starting to get into the true high performance firearms zone. 

A 240 gr bullet over 25 gr of WW 296 will sizzle.  Expect some impressive chrono numbers!

And if you really want to make some thunder, try a 180 gr XTP over say 30 gr of WW 296.  Fair warning, your gun better be in perfect condition and you better have your ammo loaded right. This is a load that you need to respect.

Do not attempt this unless you are certain your gun is up to snuff and you know what you are doing.

You have been warned.

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 11:59pm
FWIW the Hornady Manual lists 23.5 as max for H110 and 23.8 for 296 (even though they are the same powder). I just want to achieve proper functioning.  The piece of paper I’m shooting at won’t know the difference if I get another 50-100 FPS from a higher-than-max loaf, and I don’t feel like having broken Auto Mag parts raining down on me.  I’m a ‘color inside the lines’ guy when it comes to reloading.....


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 1:07am
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

FWIW the Hornady Manual lists 23.5 as max for H110 and 23.8 for 296 (even though they are the same powder). I just want to achieve proper functioning.  The piece of paper I’m shooting at won’t know the difference if I get another 50-100 FPS from a higher-than-max loaf, and I don’t feel like having broken Auto Mag parts raining down on me.  I’m a ‘color inside the lines’ guy when it comes to reloading.....

Coloring inside the lines is a good thing when it comes to loading ammo, but that then that begs the question, who drew the lines and did they know what they were doing.

I would not advocate you start out with Jurras or Lomont loading specs, but Hornady is by no means the expert on what is a max load for the Auto Mag.

If minimal function (as opposed to "proper") then stick to the minimum load that works the gun all the time.  No sense in wasting expensive powder on paper,,, Pins, plates and game are a different story.

ATB

GH



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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: edkel1
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 1:11am
I am looking forward to reloading some .357 and trying it out but i'm not in a rush , I finally took out my .44 AM today and was pleasantly surprised Big smile Yes it was fun is an understatement.
Thanks for all the info on the .357
Ed


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" Right turn Clyde "


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 6:06am
After a bit of time away from the project, I returned to the loading bench and thence to the range, shooting five-shot strings. Again, I’m using Hornady 240gr XTP bullets, Starline cases and WW-296 powder. Here are the results:

23.0 — 1314
23.5 — 1355
24.0 — 1393

I had one malfunction with 23.0 grains, but I attribute that to a momentary lapse in concentration that manifested in limp-wristing.  I had perfect functioning with 23.5 grains, so I plan to load a full box and try them out next week....


Posted By: Rocketthon
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 11:33am
My current load for 44 is 29 gr of 296 under the 180 gr XTP, very satisfying load.  Twilight shooting or indoor range shooting is a blast.

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When you are up to your neck in alligators it is hard to remember your original intention was to drain the swamp


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 1:50pm
Go back a few posts and you will see you are very close to what I posted for a load.  It's a flame thrower but it gets the job done!.

You go through a lot of powder with that round.  Some years ago, I would hit the range with no less than 200 - 250 rounds of AMP at any trip to the range and you noticed your 1 pound cans of powder emptied out pretty quickly shooting the hotter rounds.

Interestingly the biggest problem I had with my Auto Mag shooting that volume of power and that number of rounds regularly,,,,  was breaking grips and popping off the safety lever lock ring.  I think I broke one sight screw once and popped off the trigger bar lock ring once.  I think I broke one bolt rotation pin and maybe one barrel latch and then maybe 2 extractors, but shooting thousands of super hot AMP rounds over the years I have honestly had very few problems and ZERO major failures. 

Its a great gun and works fantastically if treated well and loaded properly.

Enjoy

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: WVWRZ500N
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2019 at 5:13pm
I've really enjoyed the detail of reloading.  It's a challenge to get everything just right, starting with proper headspaced cases for my gun (1.303" is perfect for the hottest loads I can make up), to the case prep, the powder weight increment and finally the AOL to the perfect thousandth of an inch.  Purchasing powder and bullets in bulk now with over 1500 rounds loaded (some shot and reloaded) since I started in March.  My latest loading is with 200gn XTPs.  Loaded in lots of 10 rounds each from 23gn to 27gn with H110.  Need to hit the range again to see how the accuracy compares.  I loaded some up with 180gn XTPs also.  I plan to hunt whitetail this fall and want the best cartridge combo for out to about 100 yards.  I'd like to chrono some of the rounds at some point but currently don't own one.  Either way the round I choose won't be based on speed but target accuracy anyway.  But it's always fun to say you slung some lead at 2,000 fps or what ever it would be.

GH has been invaluable in all the help and recommendations since I purchased my gun, can't say enough about that.


Posted By: edkel1
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2019 at 11:50pm
Bill
George is the man, he has forgotten more than most people on here will ever know and is willing to share that knowledgewithout talking down to you.
Yes I am looking forward to trying out my .357 Auto Mag but will be out of commission for the next 4-5 weeks, I had my right hip replaced yesterday and I can walk but its very sore. 
Looks like I have everything I need to to get started on reloading .357
Hey Bill hows that project coming along, cant wait to see it. 
And just for the record i'm not TD, just talking to friends about friends, that's what these boards are all about
Ed



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" Right turn Clyde "


Posted By: Rumore
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 12:01am
Originally posted by edkel1 edkel1 wrote:

(He) is willing to share that knowledge without talking down to you.


Unlike Lee Jurras…...

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Run it up, until you blow it up, then back it down a bit.


Posted By: edkel1
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 1:24am
I never had the luck to meet or talk whit him as I just got into this hobby in the beginning of April of this year
I would love to have talked with him but he was gone almost 2 years before I found this place Unhappy
Ed
p.s.   Do you still have the easy loader for the magazine. I would like to have a 3rd one ???? PLMK
Thank
Ed


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" Right turn Clyde "


Posted By: Rumore
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 2:09am
You didn't miss anything, Ed.

According to Lee, the probability of you coming up with a good "working" load for your Auto Mag was exactly Zero.

And what was it guys...help me here...the last school that taught internal ballistics closed down in 1963, and if you didn't graduate from there, you were a complete idiot and couldn't possibly figure out how many grains of H110 to put in an Auto Mag case.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tony



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Run it up, until you blow it up, then back it down a bit.


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 2:23am
WOW, very kind words Embarrassed

I'm sure I have spouted off as much as LEJ and maybe worse on some occasions, but likely motivated by very different things. 

One of my many flaws is getting sucked into stupid arguments or defending friends who I feel have been subject to personal attacks.

As for sharing knowledge, I am just doing what so many others did for me over the years.

People like Larry Grossman, Brian Maynard, Lee Jurras, Col Bob Gideon, Kent Lomont , Eric Kincel and Bruce Stark were invaluable in helping me to not give up on Auto Mags when I bought my first one it was broken and I didn't realize it, and with the help of many folks over the years, I was able to figure out how to make my Auto Mags work.  And I am truly grateful to each and everyone of them for their guidance over the many years.

Hope you all get the help you need, there are lots of helpful people here and some who may even know what they are talking about Tongue

ATB - GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2019 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Rumore Rumore wrote:

You didn't miss anything, Ed.

According to Lee, the probability of you coming up with a good "working" load for your Auto Mag was exactly Zero.

And what was it guys...help me here...the last school that taught internal ballistics closed down in 1963, and if you didn't graduate from there, you were a complete idiot and couldn't possibly figure out how many grains of H110 to put in an Auto Mag case.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tony


Well Tony, to use your words, not looking to get into any “purse fight” with you, but,,,,

 

I feel obligated to say that Lee was a legitimately talented and knowledgeable man who I found was also willing to share his knowledge freely and without hesitation to anyone who treated him decently and with respect.

 

Sure he could live up to his screen name of curmudgeon and he did not suffer self-proclaimed or instant experts very well, and I think he could smell a BS artist in about 2 seconds.  So was he crusty and crotchety and sometime just in a bad mood when he was not feeling well and suffering his various health issues including multiple bouts with cancer and watching his suffer similarly.  So YUP he had is "moments" as I do and everyone else does. 

 

But for me, he was a larger than life hero that I saw in the biggest gun magazines, on safari bumping elbows with the biggest names in the firearms industry and who built amazing guns and was actually the real deal.  And every time I spoke with him, he treated me decently with respect and to me was ALWAYS helpful and ALWAYS a pleasure to talk with.

 

Again, not looking to have a dust up with you on anything, just sharing a different observation and experience, that for me, knowing LEJ was an experience that I am very thankful for. 

 

I sure hope we don’t spend too much time here spitting on his grave.

 

GH



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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: TankMan
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2019 at 8:55pm
I originally began loading ammo at about 17 or 18 in the late 1960s (but never and not yet for any caliber AMP) and that aspect of my hobby crested in the early 1980s when my mom passed. It as well as was firearms in general was a hobby I shared with my late dad and we were in up to the hatband.
When mom passed it took the wind from our sails for a long time and reloading never came back into the foreground even when my dad and I experienced a 'rebirth' of out hobby many years later as it was short lived. Now, alone and still having dies for nearly 60 cartridges, and with the people's state enacting ever more rules and hoops to jump through I've more firm plans to begin reloading again.

The first time it was based on less than scientific methods and reliance on reloading manuals, magazines and COTW refs.  I never had a chronograph as I do now.

Which leads me to this question: has anyone here tried this system? Is it even possible to use on an  AutoMag? https://www.shootingsoftware.com/index.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.shootingsoftware.com/index.htm

Jerry



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