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357 AMP handloading

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BEEMER1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by XP001 XP001 wrote:

Beemer, thanks for that info., I understand don't fix what isn't broken. You mention easy burn powders AA and N110 but they load less dense so that is going the wrong way, correct?
 I appreciate your experience with explaining the power being totally burned without spitting unburned grains out the end of the barrel. It makes sense also. So that 90% stuff is some engineering guy giving the safest condition you can make but NOT always the best for every firearm. I'm sure revolvers would work with any of these loads but semi's have a few more needs. 

It is always better to load the case as close to full as possible, you get a more even ignition and a more consistent burn.  In rifles it is much easier to find a powder to meet this than pistols.

For a S&W 629 .44 I had a paper punching load that was a one holer all the time.  It consisted of a 240 grain lead semi wadcutter over 7 grains of Unique.  Now that 44 Rem Mag case is the same size as the 44 AMP so what kind of loading density did I have there?

H110 and 296 must be loaded to high pressures but 90% loading density, it's good to try.

Over at the 10mm Forum some guys were  loading H110 in 10mm carbines and I would not do that.  The case is just not large enough to get enough powder in to achieve the needed pressures.  It did not work either.
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Luvz2Shoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luvz2Shoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 12:27am
Beemer, thank you for the Info.

I must say, when I had initially loaded a 19gr load the gun barrel rocked up what I would consider "violently".  Scared the heck out me me.  I thought it may have broken something.  I quickly took the barrel off and inspected the lugs and whatever else I could see.  All looked good so i it put it back together and just assumed I didn't have a tight enough grip.  So I held it tighter and fired off a second round.  Again, it rocked the gun almost like before.  On the 3rd round I held it tighter yet.  It didn't rock the barrel as much, but I do have to say my hands could feel I was hanging on tight.

After those 3 rounds the barrel was hot.  You could hang on to it but not for very long.

These were some other reasons why I was thinking that 19gr was way too hot, and why I started lowering my loads significantly.

Thank you and now I realize that just might be the nature of the beast.

Reading back through this thread I must say that I am shooting a 8.5" non--vent rib barrel.

This may sound like a silly question to experienced leaders but do the loads make a difference with barrel length or should I load the same for my 6.5" barrel too?
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BEEMER1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 12:59am
Barrel length makes no difference, use the same load.

You have to remember what you are shooting, the 44 mag was the hottest round available for many years.  Neck it down to 357 and you still have a hot one.

When I hunted whitetail with a 6" S&W 629 my load was 23.3 grains of H110 pushing a 240 grainXTP and it chronographed at just over 1400 fps.  Believe me, it woke you up.  I would not be able to shoot that today.
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Luc V. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 5:50pm
Luv2shoot,

First I want to say I do not reload the 357 AMP cartridge but out of curiousity
I just ran your loading data through the QuickLoad program and it gives the following result:
Velocity 1218 fps (for a 6 inch barrel)
Chamber pressure 19345 psi
Case filling = 71.4 %
Amount of burned powder when bullet leaves barrel = 69.25 %

If you interested in a full ballistic result for your exact cartridge, send me an email and I return with a screenshot from my computer with full details.

For a correct result I need the grains of water (volume) from your resized 357AMP case, the OAL of the complete cartridge, the load of powder and the type and weight of the bullet. Also the barrel length of your gun.
When I have that I can send the you data for your gun/cartridge.

So far I see it's a fairly low load.

Just one remark about slow burning powders and light loads, be sure to use MAGNUM primers.

The magnum primers make all the different in ignition. Magnum primers have a longer and much hotter flame as others. Just shoot a primed case with the different primers in low light and watch the length of the flame.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luvz2Shoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 11:56pm
Luc,

Thank you for the info and the offer. I am not an experienced loader either. In fact this was the first time that I have loaded for anything. I figured that if I can meticulously go through the process to load my 357AMP, I can apply it to just bout anything else that I shoot (and feel fairly comfortable doing so).

I do have to say that after firing off the 19gr load and seeing what the gun did, I just can't imagine loading it any higher. After reading everyone's input, I see that it can go higher.

Thank you for running the info through your program. I have no idea what the volume of the case is, but I can see what I can find. I am trying to load these things exactly as published by Lee and other sources. I am loading with CCI 350 Magnum pistol primers. (I do remember reading to only use magnum primers when loading for these.)

Does anyone know what sort of pressures these things can be loaded up to? I thought i remember reading that Lee and Kent were testing/shooting these pushing 30,000 CUP?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:28am
Originally posted by Luvz2Shoot Luvz2Shoot wrote:

Luc,

Thank you for the info and the offer. I am not an experienced loader either. In fact this was the first time that I have loaded for anything. I figured that if I can meticulously go through the process to load my 357AMP, I can apply it to just bout anything else that I shoot (and feel fairly comfortable doing so).

I do have to say that after firing off the 19gr load and seeing what the gun did, I just can't imagine loading it any higher. After reading everyone's input, I see that it can go higher.

Thank you for running the info through your program. I have no idea what the volume of the case is, but I can see what I can find. I am trying to load these things exactly as published by Lee and other sources. I am loading with CCI 350 Magnum pistol primers. (I do remember reading to only use magnum primers when loading for these.)

Does anyone know what sort of pressures these things can be loaded up to? I thought i remember reading that Lee and Kent were testing/shooting these pushing 30,000 CUP?



Lee Jurras tested some of Kent Lomont's loads in his pressure barrels at Super Vel and he had loads for the 44 and 357 AMP at 65,000 psi.  Glad it was not me or my gun doing the shooting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 2:39pm
To Luv2shoot, it's easy to know the volume of the resized case, just pour water in the case and fill it to the top. That weight in grains is the maximum volume.
 
To beemer, I'm almost sure Lee Jurras never tested the Automag cartridges in PSI. Back then all testing was done in CUP. There is a Huge difference between the two.
It's a mistake often made to mix those numbers/parameters.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Luc V. Luc V. wrote:

To Luv2shoot, it's easy to know the volume of the resized case, just pour water in the case and fill it to the top. That weight in grains is the maximum volume.
 
To beemer, I'm almost sure Lee Jurras never tested the Automag cartridges in PSI. Back then all testing was done in CUP. There is a Huge difference between the two.
It's a mistake often made to mix those numbers/parameters.
 

Luc, you  are probably right and I was aware of that when I posted the comment.  I do not remember if I read that or Lee told me that and I do not know where to look for it.

All I know is that Jurras tested some Lomont AMP loads and the were well into pressures that are normally only seen in magnum rifles.  Jurras said they were well beyond anything he would load.

Luv2shoot  -  I understand your concerns.  I will say this, after 30+ years of hand loading I could not come up with a worse cartridge to start on than the 357 AMP.  With head spacing concerns, reformed brass, and user unfriendly powders it is a tough one for anyone.

When I bought my first 357 AMP it came from a girl and it included 2 boxes of ammo from a commercial reloader.  There were only two rounds fired out of the 40 which I found strange.  

I loaded one round and fired it and everything went fine.  I loaded two rounds next and the gun would not fire as it was not in battery.  I started checking the ammo and nearly all had the shoulder too far forward to chamber.  I checked my gun against the dies and the headspace on my pistol was out of spec and I had to remove material from the bottom of the die to reload for it.

When loading for Auto Mags caution is advised.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:09pm
If I remember well, I have an email from the late Lee where we discussed pressure in automag cartridges and he said that he usually worked around the maximum of 50.000 CUPs. for the 44
I guess the 357 should be much the same.
Included is an old file about tests he did for the 357.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luvz2Shoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 9:11pm

Beemer:  About 15 years ago, not too long after I got my first 357AMP, I was at a gun show and on one of the tables a guy had a small plastic bag with shells in it.  Written on the bag was "40CT.  357 Auto Mag. $5".  Needless to say I couldn't get a $5 dollar bill out of my pocket fast enough.  When I got home I checked each shell in my gun.  Each shell allowed the bolt to close and rotate into the locked position.  Right then I knew I got lucky running across these.

Starting this reloading process I started with a different 357 barrel but used those shells as a starting point.  I locked the bolt open and dropped a shell into the chamber.  Very slowly I closed the bolt and it only "hung up" when the extractor went over the rim of the shell.  Once the shell was against the bolt face I closed it all the way and it rotated and locked into place.  I knew that those shells would give me a good starting point at seating the shoulder depth.
 
I set the shell in my 357 necking die and ran the die down to the point that it just touched the shoulder.  I backed the die off about 1/2 of a turn.  I ran the first 44AMP shell into the neck die.  I then put it in the gun to see if the bolt would close and lock into place.  (the first time did not).  Then I turned the die down a little and ran the shell again to neck it just a little further.  Again, I checked for fit.  After about 4 or 5 minor turns of the die I got the neck down far enough to fit into my chamber - but it was tight!  So, I took the die and turned it down a hair more.  The shell dropped in and the bolt was able to close and rotate into the locked position.
 
I then did the "test" that Tim Bell posted in another thread.  With shell in the barrel and the bolt close and locked on it, take the end of the barrel and push it into a towel and watch the travel.  I observed how far the barrel moved before the bolt started to unlock and rotate.  I guessed that with very little "play" before the bolt started to disengage, I got the shell to rest on the bolt face where it is supposed to, and that I had gotten the shoulder fit for my gun correct.
 
I ran a bunch of 44 shells to that neck depth.  I verified that each shell dropped in and checked the "barrel push check" on every shell.  I was assuming that I got everything correct every step BEFORE loading with any powder.
 
Before dropping powder into the first shell I had read everything that I could.  I must have put a good 10-15 hours into reading, searching, and posting on here.  This has been fun and I can't wait to start loading a few hundred rounds for the 158gr bullets.  THEN I'll start to work on some hole-punching loads for the 125gr bullets.  I plan to start at Lee's lowest suggested load (LOL).  And I will go back through and see what other "recipes" people have shared for the 125gr bullets.
 
Luc:  Thank you for posting this.  I noticed they are testing 24gr of 296.  WOW!  In the "pressure" column, do you think that is PSI or CUP pressures?
 
I found this conversion online:
 
CUP to PSI:
(PSI + 17902)/1.516 = CUP
 
PSI to CUP:
(1.516 x CUP) - 17902 = PSI
 
 
By your numbers (above) that you got from your program, I am only right around 24569 CUP.
 
(19345 + 17902) / 1.516 = 24569.
 
 
As Beemer and you have mentioned/hinted, for this gun 19gr of H110 (or W296) should be right around the very lightest we should be using?
 
 
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